The Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito Round Table

With the Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito extravaganza just around the corner, we decided to do something a little different at The Boxing Bulletin and invited a few of the sport's leading bloggers to share their views on the controversial fight in a round table style discussion.

Our group of bloggers includes:  Scott Christ (Bad Left Hook), Carlos Acevedo (The Cruelest Sport), Tim Starks (The Queensbury Rules), Andrew Harrison (Safe Side of the Ropes), and our own Corey Erdman and Anthony Wilson.

Let's get to it...

How did you feel about the fight when the match-up was originally signed. Has your stance changed at all with November 13 quickly approaching? If so, why?

Scott Christ:  My feeling was that it was predictable boxing business as usual. It's a fight with a mega name and a known opponent. It's about money, and Top Rank keeping all of it. It's about trying to cover up for the failure to make the one fight that the world at large wants to see. My stance hasn't changed at all. This fight does nothing for legacy (which is an incredibly overused word), but it does allow Pacquiao to make the bogus claim of being world champion in an eighth division should he win, the fight will sell pretty well and make money at the gate, and HBO was willing to pony up. Top Rank almost can't lose here unless the fight dramatically underperforms on pay-per-view, and it won't. Even a Margarito upset of Pacquiao means that Margarito is suddenly a huge money player, and Pacquiao's boxing future seems murky at best right now anyway. I don't hate this fight, but I resent the idea that this fight is really, truly that big of a deal. It's the third- or fourth-best fight in November.

Tim Starks:  Whereas I hate it. I'm still unhappy about Pacquiao-Mayweather not happening, and Pacquiao-Margarito is a piss-poor substitute. It's not just the loaded glove business, although that's a big part of it -- any episode that draws parallels with the Resto-Collins scandal isn't going to enthuse me. It's also that there's very reasonable doubt (which I would set aside somewhat if Margarito pulls off the upset or puts up a helluva fight) whether Margarito's career is fraudulent because of the loaded glove business. "Fraudulence" isn't on my checklist of the qualities of desirable opponents for the world's best boxer. Nor is it a real attraction for me that in Margarito's last meaningful fight, he got savagely knocked out, then in his next fight, he was borderline awful. So even if he was on the up-and-up before, he hasn't done anything to compel me since. And there's all the phony eighth division stuff and the cynical Top Rank in-house business Scott mentioned, when Pacquiao-Marquez III would have been a better, maybe even bigger, option. The nicest thing I can say about it, other than that Pacquiao is fighting at all, is that the oft-convincing sales job HBO 24/7 has been doing on its competitiveness, along with all the worry emanating from the Pacquiao camp, have me questioning whether it could be a more even bout than the odds suggest.

Anthony Wilson: I was initially against the fight, not just on fundamental moral grounds but because Margarito lacked the luster that he had pre-Plaster Gate. The overwhelming consensus was that he didn't nearly deserve a fight of this magnitude after the deed he did, and that he was shown to be washed up/exposed without his handy dandy hand wraps in his last two fights, anyway. That, even putting aside the fact that Margarito is a convicted cheater of the highest order, the fight was just a farce: Pacquiao going for a cheapened belt in an eighth division against an over-the-hill, "de-clawed" punching bag. And I agreed.

But the more I thought about it the more I began to feel differently. Truth is, we can't really be sure of any of this stuff. Truth is, we don't know the extent of Margs' use of illegal wrappings - if he ever used them at all. Seriously (though I strongly assume that he did, specifically against Cotto). Nor do we know if he's truly washed up - his last two performances certainly have mitigating factors. So I am, at the least, intrigued by this fight.

Andrew Harrison: I had to rack my brains over this one. I certainly wasn’t dancing a jig about it when it was announced, as personally I don’t believe Margarito should be fighting anymore, yet I also don’t recall going all Mary Whitehouse over it either. I do remember thinking that it’d be a walk in the park for Pacquiao. I reckon the thing that hacked me off most was the way in which Pacquiao was permitted to trample all over Sheffield veteran Ryan Rhodes, who was queuing patiently in line for an alphabet title crack (alphabet gripes are futile I know but a title shot for Rhodes would have been a life changer, does it really amount to a hill of beans for Manny?). A while back I suggested fans boycott Pacquiao (and Floyd) after their dalliance with one another had hit the skids for the umpteenth time. Considering my stance on Margarito I feel more than a little insecure about participating in the bout’s coverage, yet as the bout draws near I can’t help being intrigued. My opinion on it being an easy fight for the Filipino has also changed and that's not due to the old switcheroo job Arum and Roach appear to be trying to pull with their outbursts about how shitty Manny has looked in camp.

Corey Erdman: When I first heard of this bout, I felt that given timing and marketability that it was the correct choice. Months later, I still feel the same way. I have debated the morality of this bout ad nauseum over the past few weeks, so I will summarize at the risk of making myself sound cold: Long ago, I accepted that boxing was the gutter of professional sports. If I was to be offended and driven to boycott this bout, it would be hard for me to justify letting a lot of other things slide.

In Margarito, the squeaky-clean Pacquiao gets the ultimate heel opponent who packs a built-in storyline for the buildup to November 13. Not to mention, the fighters' respective skill sets and mentalities make a boring fight an impossibility.

Is Margarito qualified to be in this bout? Yes he is. Will Manny Pacquiao prevail? The odds say probably, but as Tim Starks has pointed out, that's on Manny Pacquiao, not because Margarito didn't deserve to be there.

Carlos Acevedo: Initially, I felt a sense of disappointment simply because Margarito is a poor substitute for Floyd Mayweather. But, like Corey, I think this is the only other fight out there that makes business sense, partly because of its sordidness. For Top Rank, having such a divisive attraction, one that has set off high anxiety among many, is the key lure. That, and not having to split any of the booty in a co-promotion, of course.

My stance hasn’t changed. The entire affair is an exercise in cynicism, like something out of a Billy Wilder film, Ace in the Hole, say. But once you strip this fight of its negative elements, does it stand on its own as a competitive bout? I would say yes--and that isn’t an endorsement of Margarito’s chances or the fight itself. It just means that Margarito is not Miki Rodriguez. In a sport where contestants are sometimes pulled out of the audience, it means something that Margarito has a long list of accomplishments behind him. Somehow, Margarito has gone from being as feared as Robespierre was during the French Revolution to being barely fit enough to work at a roadside diner. Unless you think all of his fights were questionable--and certainly there are a couple that now seem more than just a little suspicious--then you have to look at Margarito as a once formidable fighter whose assumed downward spiral after the Mosley bout has yet to be demonstrated where it counts most: in the ring.

Scott Christ: I'm more hung up on his legitimacy as an opponent thanks to Margarito-Garcia than I am the Mosley and Cotto scandals/non-scandals/whatever. Against Garcia, Margarito didn't look like much for someone on Pacquiao's level to lose sleep over. Maybe it's that fight, or maybe I'm just being overly cynical about the guy, but I'm having a hard time finding a good reason other than size that he presents any legitimate challenge to someone like Manny Pacquiao at this stage of his career. The last time he showed up to fight someone good, he didn't just lose, he got slaughtered in jaw-dropping fashion. And that was 22 months ago. Carlos and Corey say it's worthwhile, Andrew and Anthony seem to at least partially agree, and I'm just not seeing it. I will sadly note that no, I really cannot think of anyone much better outside of the obvious choice.

Tim Starks: I can make a case for Pacquiao-Marquez III being a bigger and more competitive fight, and for other people being more competitive than Margarito. He has a quality win in the summer of 2008 and has looked defanged since. There are mitigating circumstances in those two bouts, but not enough to overtake the case for other opponents.

To Corey I say, I don't think one must let other things in boxing slip to be bothered by this. It's a question of what bothers one most, and what one things is the appropriate reaction to it all. I'm sure I could come up with scenarios in boxing that everyone would find worthy of line-drawing, even for a gutter sport. For some, this is that instance; for others, not so much, and that's fine.

To Carlos I say, I wonder how much Top Rank truly likes the sordid angle. I get a lot of news releases hyping Margarito as a glorious humanitarian akin to Ghandi -- any remotely favorable article gets distributed far and wide -- and Margarito and his crew keep protesting his innocence. I suspect, but do not know, that what Top Rank likes most about Margs in this fight is the eighth title, the Mexican fan base, and maybe a side of "tale of redemption." Also: not splitting the booty. Maybe most of all.

Carlos Acevedo: Tim makes a good point about Top Rank and its rehabilitation PR for Margarito. But I suspect that's because they know that the boxing media will do all of the heavy lifting for them so far as comparing Margarito to Tamerlame or Vlad the Impaler. They're right.

The actual fight has taken a back seat to the other storylines, but do you believe there a strong possibility of a competitive main-event? If so, how do you see Margarito troubling Pacquiao?

Tim Starks: I don't like the chances. But, again, HBO 24/7 is masterful at making it seem like a titanic struggle is about to unfold. I might give a 3rd grade girl a chance against Pacquiao after that treatment. That Freddie Roach et all are saying Pacquiao's had such a terrible camp is concerning, and Margarito's size is concerning, and if Margarito's anything like his old self, then I suppose that pressure and imperviousness to getting knocked out is concerning. On the other hand, the speed differential is monumental. Per Anthony above, it might not be a good big man versus a good little man. It might be a style question, where one guy is so beyond fast and other guy is so beyond slow that it might not matter. I mean, Paulie Malignaggi has a boxing career, you know?

Anthony Wilson: Yeah Tim, and honestly I was just throwing it out there. As you alluded to, on paper, Manny should smoke Margarito. Thus far Manny has been much faster than everyone he has fought, but against Margarito the difference may be most pronounced. I was watching a clip of Margarito sparring on 24/7, and we all know he's slow, but that sequence really struck me: dude is ESPECIALLY slow. He's gotten by on that chin and that stamina, both extraordinary. But at such a deficit of hand - and foot - as long as Manny stays off the ropes (not doing so was Cotto's big mistake - well, aside from not ensuring that someone watch Margarito get his hands wrapped, perhaps), as I'm sure Roach is instilling in him now and will reinforce all night on Nov. 13 - he should be fine.

Scott Christ: Take out the name value, and this is a speed merchant with at the least enough power to keep anyone honest against a lumbering guy who hasn't fought a tough opponent in two years. Does that sound like it has the makings of a great fight? Margarito made a 37-year-old Shane Mosley look fast for the last time in Mosley's career. And how good are Margarito's whiskers now, anyway? That was his greatest asset before the Cotto fight, and I feel that the punishment he took there isn't credited enough for having cracked the egg, so to speak. He was mauled by Mosley and beaten into a pulp. He has no chance of keeping pace with Pacquiao and will need Manny to either fight in an amazingly dumb fashion, which is unlikely, or to catch him with such a big shot that Pacquiao can't recover.

Andrew Harrison: I give Margarito a shot. This weight jumping malarkey is a dangerous game, one which affords the smaller guy a ready made excuse should he fall short (thereby qualifying as one of my pet hates). Cotto had a fair bit of success early against Pacquiao until badly hurt in the fourth, yet I don't expect Margarito to be nearly as susceptible to Manny's bombs as the Puerto Rican proved to be. Against Clottey, the size differential was noticeable and despite having his way with the bigger man, Pacquiao looked hugely tired at the finish and was even marked up some (which is concerning when you take into account how inactive Clottey was). I wondered then how he'd cope if he picked on a big lug with an aversion to pacifism, which appears to be the case here. Margarito has an intangible asset which can propel fighters to superhuman deeds; a monumental chip on his shoulder. He will be slower, he will look lumbering in comparison, yet he'll be like a dog with a bone in his pursuit of the little speedball. Unless Margarito leaves everything in the gym (a distinct possibility) Pacquiao will be forced to deal with more punches coming his way than he's needed to since the Marquez rematch and it's the Mexican's fire which makes me believe it'll be competitive.

Corey Erdman: If I knew that this would be an absolute shellacking, then this would be shown on a Thursday night and promoted by Golden Boy, rather than Top Rank, and I wouldn't be watching.

Actually, I watch Fight Night Club anyway.

That aside, of course there is a realistic chance that Margarito makes the bout competitive, because it isn't a grievous physical mismatch. What it is however, is a contrast in physicality. The fast little guy against the plodding big guy. While Pacquiao's dominance and accomplishments might make you think that his set of skills is likely to prevail, on paper there is an equal chance that Margarito's height, pressure, body punching and unusual punch delivery will overwhelm Pacquiao.

As often as I can, I like to believe that Saturday nights, particularly on pay per view, will be competitive.

Carlos Acevedo: Everyone makes good points concerning the "competitive" question surrounding this fight. In a way, this is one of the interesting aspects of the matchup: there are so many variables involved that anything seems possible. The recombination of these elements--mix n' match possibilities with intangibles--makes a few outcomes likelier. If Margarito is not as shot as thought and there is some truth to stories about Pacquiao's training camp, then the fight becomes competitive. If Pacquiao finds it harder to carry the weight and Margarito is not as shot as thought, ditto, and so on.

There's no real way to determine how ringworn Margarito is post-Mosley--and I believe he is past his peak--until he is in a fight tough enough to demonstrate his erosion. In addition, his primitive high-pressure style, not one predicated on speed or finesse, is one less susceptible to sudden deterioration than others. Unless, as Scott points out, Margarito's chin is now riddled with cracks.

As Andrew mentioned, Pacquiao has started to bust up, and I suspect his new tic of suddenly stopping, covering up and just standing there taking punches, is a sign that he's either slowing down or bothered by carrying excess weight. Also, Margarito is preposterously bigger than Pacquiao and will likely try to use his size to his advantage. Neither Cotto nor Clottey were infighters, but Margarito will try to bullyrag him in close.

In the end, I do believe that there's a possibility this fight will be competitive, but that assumption hinges on some contingencies.

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How do you feel about the fight?  Still rankled that it's taking place, or excited to see the match-up?  What do you think of Margarito's chances?

For more on Margarito vs Pacquiao and all the other good fights coming up over the next couple of months, make sure to check out...

Bad Left Hook - The Cruelest Sport - The Queensbury Rules - Safe Side of the Ropes